Onslow

[Mine Explorer]

Originally Posted by plateman

Always horrendous for exhibitors to leave the site on Monday evening, wouldn't put up with this anywhere else but Onslow is so good in all other respects that we overlook it.

The queues usually have dispersed after an hour or so, at which point it's possible to drive straight out. After the rally has actually closed they usually open all the gates they've got to try and get stuff out (obviously doesn't help those exhibitors who start leaving before the end of the rally though). I'm not quite sure how much more the organisers could do? I can understand those travelling long distances wanting to get on the road, but is it better to get worked up and annoyed shuffling forwards in a queue, or to chill out for an hour or two and have something to eat until the mad rush has died down? ....I'm sure the organisers would be only too happy to have some helpers to start getting the fences stacked up if anyone is at a loose end whilst waiting.

Originally Posted by Cvrt0_0

I also can't understand why they park the engines so far away from the working field. If they used the bit that is used for camping and the trade stands then it would make much more sense and flow a lot better.

I'm not totally clear why the steam engines would need to be located near the working field? That's predominently for infernal confusion engine tractors.
The ploughers (who live exclusively in the working field) are always over there, as are the couple that work in wood sawing/threshing/crushing arenas. The commercials are near the working field on the bit of site leading up to it - but then that's also sloping ground so unlikely to be welcomed by the steam owners. It would also mean an uphill climb for all the steamers to reach the arena for the parade, not a sensible situation if it can be avoided. The original location for the arena was a little further over until one year when it hissed with rain at just after 2pm... unfortunately in that location all exits from the arena were uphill: The majority of the engines were stuck in the arena unable to get out.

Whilst I agree the working field does feel a bit seperate from the main site, that's always been the case and the organisers have made efforts to merge the two by adding side stalls, exhibits and other things along the corridor between them. Personally I think they're a lot more joined up these days than it was in the early days.

If the exhibitor camping area and public camping area were to be displaced to be taken up by exhibits and fill the triangle between the two sites, then where would the camping go? There are only just so many fields available for the rally to use (and abuse).

Originally Posted by Aveling8727

Think they need to get The Wurzels or Busker on in the Beer tent!!

I think it's a few years ago now, but they have had "The Wurzels" at Onslow. They were a novelty the first year, but after two or three consecutive years they were starting to sound a bit like a broken record playing the same set in the same order each time. ...as for 'Busker - I guess that's a "Marmite" type thing.

I think it better to book some local talent for the entertainment than pay a premium for a novelty act. In the evening the beer tent/entertainment is for the benefit of the exhibitors, which is a rather captive audience. Those who go over to the beer tent will do so irrespective of what the stage act is.

Originally Posted by weider

I understand that the playpen will be back in a sensible position again next year

That's indeed good to hear, none of the orgainsers I've spoken to during or since the rally were aware of that, so you must have a high up source.

Looking at video footage I took from inside the playpen arena last year you can see visitors a couple of rows deep around the outside watching. You don't get that for the main parade at many other events. The sight and sound of the heavy trailers being dragged up the hill was always impressive and the public queues for trailer rides around the arena were never ending.

By comparison this year's effort was pathetic - a soft muddy stubble patch around the outside of the ploughers (such that they could only cultivate in one line), located 4 miles away from the engine line with a convoluted route for the steamers to be able to make their way across to it... shared with tracked military vehicles that would rip the mud up on every corner so there'd be no hope of any roller making it round without getting stuck.

Originally Posted by Tasker Tractor

...A little spoilt by the over officious marshals in yellow jackets.
I live next to a road that you can legally do 60 mph on that I can walk within 6" of the traffic if I choose. But at the rally I was waved out of the way 3' away from a car moving from the arena that was stuck in traffic. Please can we have some sensible movement without the hi vis.

There has been a long history stretching back over the 20 years the rally has been at Shrewsbury where for many years there was a total movement ban. For various reasons that has relaxed, but I agree that it can be very frustrating when yellow jacketted wonders start making up their own rules on the spot. It can also be a tad exasperating when some 13 year old cadet starts issuing orders as though they're on their parade ground. It's important to remember that as a member of the public one is also perfectly at will to be deaf and not hear them - especially when they declare it's "unsafe" to walk between two stationary vehicles lined up for the arena. In the same way one takes responsibility for your own actions whilst navigating the public car park, just watch what you're doing on the rally field as well.

A couple of years ago they seemed to stop using the cadets (there used to be thousands of them) and instead used society volunteers. The numbers dropped and the number of chips-on-shoulders also seemed to decrease. I'm aware they were using cadets again this year. I suspect finding volunteers to do that job isn't easy, and in defence of the cadets: They've been told words to the effect of 'keeping people out of the way of vehicles' - they're just doing what they've been paid to do. I just personally wish some would use more common sense, occasional manners, and remember they're NOT in the army barking orders to subordinates. Having said all that, I didn't witness any 'problems' with the cadets on site this year - so experiences clearly vary.

I always remember with amusement some cadets getting in a frenzy when they saw Ray Matthews walk out from the crowd towards "Tommy" as it was moving towards the arena. ...without taking any notice of the cadet (who was getting quite agitated) he waited until the engine slowed and paused before climbing up onto it. The cadet suddenly went quiet and shut up again after seeing the owner get on their engine!

Originally Posted by International Steam

At the time I pointed out that it was a total shambles compared to the rest of the show and i was told that the traffic queues outside were none of their business and there was nothing that could be done about the queues to pay. This is rubbish, whoever is in charge of entry and exit should be voluntarily retired, some fresh thinking is badly needed.

As for entry, a complete rethink of the site is needed, the entry point has to be moved nearer the by-pass and more entry lanes put in place.

The delays along the A5 and A458 have always been a problem - but then even before the rally moved to that site there were tail backs (and still are on other holidays in the year) as the whole of the West Midlands who have been to the Welsh coast for the weekend all pour out of Wales to go home. Trying to add the population of the rally field into the same traffic jam is just going to make matters worse. There are signs out that try to divert through traffic via. Westbury & Halfway House, but I'm skeptical about how many people use that? It's a good road and no further than using the A5/A458.

As for moving the entrance nearer the bypass - where?
There are only three gates onto the site, all open out onto the A458. The bottom one is used for the public car park, the middle one is the normal estate entrance and is blocked until after the rally has closed, and the top one is the exhibitor's entrance. There aren't any entrances from the dual carriageway and adding anything more would require the land owner to allow brick walls and established hedges to be destroyed.

A good few years ago they did route the exit from the public car park along a private lane/track across the fields that deposited everyone on a narrow lane at Dinthill, but then the traffic is all going to head back to Ford and try and join the A458 again. I'm sure if anyone out there has some magical solution to getting all the rally traffic in and out of the site whilst avoiding the A458 (ie. the only road that runs alongside the estate) then I suspect the organisers would be only too happy to hear it.

I'm not sure about the solution to queuing to pay, but I understand 'Dorset can have huge queues at the pay booths as well. Perhaps once 'Dorset have found the solution Onslow could try copying it?

Originally Posted by buzzy bee

I was told off by an officials son, for movement without a steward. we have had movement for a few years doing what I was with no problem, and the other thing I found odd was whilst being shouted and cursed at, not pleasantly, several tractors with people trains on drove past all without a steward.

I have a vague recollection they try to get around the 'steward' problem for the road trains by claiming they're a 'fairground ride' or some such. I'm not personally all that convinced there's a great difference between a tractor and multiple trailers barging through the visitors and any other exhibit moving about, but hey ho.

Going back a good few years when Frank used to do the water with the Scammell. I remember the 'all vehicles must be accompanied by a steward' ruling was not too popular - especically with the stewards who had to walk miles in front of it! By the end of the first day one of the steward's Hi-Viz vests was draped across the front of the radiator and it just crawled around on its own. The stewards had given up!

Stewards aren't a unique "Onslow" problem though, it can be a similar situation at other events and I find it infuriating that many stewards/event organisers have it driven into their thick skulls that steam engines are in some way different to every other road vehicle out there. At the beginning of June I had the knackered-roller at an event held on a show ground with a metalled road network around the site. On the Sunday evening I was making my way towards the gate for the start of the little 3 hour drive home - safety valves feathering and everything 'on song' ready for the run through Shrewsbury and up out of town. Despite there being no other pedestrians in sight, and cars moving around the site freely, some yellow jacketted marshall took it upon himself that my engine needed a steward - so he stepped out and walked along directly infront of me (not the brightest place to walk anyway!). Aware of what he was up to, I didn't slow down... after a short time he clearly became aware of the clattering monster behind him catching up, so he started trying to swot a fly - at least I assume that's what he was doing as he started waving his arm up and down. Eventually he twigged that I was ignoring him and stepped to one side whilst shouting for me to slow down. My response was to point out that the site speed limit was 5mph, and I definately wasn't going that fast. (reference to GPS log data later in the evening confirmed my statement). For some reason he was blind to all the cars moving faster than I was, yet some how felt a steam engine should be doing a fraction of the site speed limit. Having left the site I could then play with the pedestrians, parked cars, buses and lorries as I went past the town centre and up through the suburbs without needing marshalls, hi-viz or someone with little to no knowledge of my engine and its abilities telling me what to do on a deserted rally field.

During the rally marshalls and stewards are a necessary evil so organisers can show they are responding to their duty of care. I just wish some of the chosen stewards could do it politely, with courtesy and learn to switch off when the rally is over! (needless to say, my comments don't apply to all the marshalls and stewards who are sensible already!)

Originally Posted by Cvrt0_0

However, with regard to the whole 'steward' situation. Why does Onslow require an army of hi-viz wearing cadets to keep the public clear from being run over (again having done it in the past a thankless task)? Yet despite this the few engine movements I saw on Sunday had little in the way of any 'banksman' whatsoever? I did ask some years ago but never really got a reply other than 'insurance'. If that is the case then how do events like Cerney, Malpas and Welland cope?

This year engine owners were told that if they wished to go on the expedition to the 'playpen' then they could "self-steward" through the public areas before reaching the service road around the back. However this itself is a bit of a retrograde step seeing as a few years ago when the playpen was first introduced there was also a relaxation of the "no movement" rule in that engines could move about the site so long as they did it slowly, sensibly, avoided large crowds and you didn't have all the engines trying to move about at the same time - there was no requirement for stewards. In practice most engine movements were to/from the playpen - after all, why shuffle slowly around the public areas when there's a nice large playpen that the engines can be driven about in at will? ...I'm not sure how an engine with a crew of one is suppose to 'self-steward', but seeing as there effectively wasn't a play pen and on Monday it was a mud bath, the situation never arose.

Not really relevant to Onlsow, but of course in the whole never ending "steward" arguments I've yet to ever find anyone able to explain why 'exhibits' need marshalls and stewards, and yet hired security firms can drive about in cars/quads without stewards, the toilet servicing contractors do not need marshalling, any police presence can drive unmarshalled, and the rally organiser's themselves don't need their vehicles/quads etc. stewarding. The best one of all was at Welland a good few years ago when Sherpa pick ups with "Midland Sherpa Spares" branding on the side could be seen driving through the crowded public areas in the middle of the day by children who I'd guess were around 13/14 years old with their mates in the cab and no adults. None of the stewards or event safety officer seemed at all concerned by this, funnily enough.

Originally Posted by General C.R Dewet

One I took today on the way home. Could have been 100 years ago.

From the marks on the road, it looks as if it wasn't the first engine passing that way...

[Steve Arrowsmith]

I note all the adverse comments but we always enjoy ourselves, we are made to feel welcome and the numbers of people attending proves the organisers are getting it right. So what more do you want.

[triumphman]

Mine explorer putting in a late entry for longest post of 2014. Good effort.

[davidnclare]

Ian 'an hour or so'
It is more like three hours.

[weidner]

Yes , Ian , I did have a high up source , albeit he may have been expressing his intent to see that it would be so .

[Cvrt0_0]

Originally Posted by Mine Explorer

I'm not totally clear why the steam engines would need to be located near the working field? That's predominently for infernal confusion engine tractors.

The ploughers (who live exclusively in the working field) are always over there, as are the couple that work in wood sawing/threshing/crushing arenas. The commercials are near the working field on the bit of site leading up to it - but then that's also sloping ground so unlikely to be welcomed by the steam owners. It would also mean an uphill climb for all the steamers to reach the arena for the parade, not a sensible situation if it can be avoided. The original location for the arena was a little further over until one year when it hissed with rain at just after 2pm... unfortunately in that location all exits from the arena were uphill: The majority of the engines were stuck in the arena unable to get out.

Having driven a roller at Onslow I appreciate the situation with the lie of the land. I just feel it is a bit of an odd situation having the working demonstrations (steam threshing, stone crushing, sawing etc) up one end of the field and the play pen (well this year it was more threshing) up the other end.

Originally Posted by Mine Explorer

If the exhibitor camping area and public camping area were to be displaced to be taken up by exhibits and fill the triangle between the two sites, then where would the camping go? There are only just so many fields available for the rally to use (and abuse).

I know it is hard to please everyone, I appreciate space is finite and at no point was I suggesting 'displacing' people to make room for steam. But perhaps a rejig might be in order?

[weidner]

I reckon that a part of the trouble with pestilential stewards is that they are under the common delusion that steam vehicles are somehow inherently dangerous .

It should be impressed on them that this is not so , but that an engine driver may be grateful for some HELP in crowds , rather than ignorant and officious HINDRANCE .

[Cvrt0_0]

Originally Posted by Mine Explorer

I suspect finding volunteers to do that job isn't easy, and in defence of the cadets: They've been told words to the effect of 'keeping people out of the way of vehicles' - they're just doing what they've been paid to do. I just personally wish some would use more common sense, occasional manners, and remember they're NOT in the army barking orders to subordinates. Having said all that, I didn't witness any 'problems' with the cadets on site this year - so experiences clearly vary.

Again, having done this activity at Onslow and being a CI with the Air Training Corp I've done my fair share of car parking / stewarding at events (most unpaid by the way) and it really is not an easy job. It is frustrating, hair pulling and sometimes downright dangerous stuff that I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy and in my opinion it is certainly something that 13-17 year olds should not be employed doing.

The paperwork alone for allowing teenage cadets anywhere near a event like Onslow is immense (and we aren't just taking about the usual health and safety 'nonsense' here).

Above it all they are just doing what the organiser has told them to do and I've seen some strange sights. Like the year the organisers placed a large blue biffa bin in the path of the engines coming from the arena to make them divert round a particularly soft patch and left a group of cadets to 'guard' it. That went down really well with engine men and public a like. How to look like an pillock in one easy lesson.

Add to that most people seem to think that the reason you go to events is to wear a hi-viz vest and order people about to satisfy some bizarre sexual thrill and to be honest you really couldn't pay me enough to do that job.

[Lancashire Lad]

I for one had a brilliant weekend! As did all the crew! As for the comments about officious high viz wearers, on Sunday eve when trying to locate the playpen, we took a wrong turn. Thankfully one was on hand knew exactly where we were trying to get to before we even murmured play pen, offered to escort us down, but was perfectly happy for myself to do this task.

All the crew enjoyed themselves, even though it rained on Monday, still thought it was a good one. I only hope we are invited back next year!

[Mine Explorer]

Originally Posted by davidnclare

Ian 'an hour or so'
It is more like three hours.

The rally doesn't finish until 5pm. If I'm taking the steam U-Boat back to its home yard then I arrange with the section organiser to leave the engine line about half an hour early so I can hit the road and be back before dark. On each occasion I've done it, the roller has been leaving the rally gates onto the A458 at 5pm (so has technically been on site until the end!), which means it's taken less than 30 minutes (usually 15 to 20) to do the quarter to half mile or so from the engine line at slow walking crawl and to then join the queue and shuffle along the entrance drive. This means it's moving and not a huge problem around 16:30. On Monday night I drove straight off the field for the first time at 19:30 without sight of another vehicle trying to leave, and the road had been like that for some time as I'd been parking up the tatty heap a short distance away from it ready for Tuesday.

That means in the space of three hours it goes from moving steadily at roller speed through to nothing trying to leave at all. If you spent three hours waiting for the exhibitor's gate then I suspect you were severely lost, because the build up was gone before that, and as the backlog does shuffle forwards nobody sat queuing would have to wait anywhere near that long between joining it and getting out.

What IS unfortunate is that the exhibitor exits cut through the site a bit, so it's a pain trying to cut across the queue to get from one area to another as people wrongly assume you're trying to jump the queue. It also means those trying to reach the low loader park also have to try and join and then leave the queues to reach their trailers long before actually wanting to leave. I can't see any realistic alternatives for that though.

Originally Posted by weidner

Yes , Ian , I did have a high up source , albeit he may have been expressing his intent to see that it would be so .

Last time I spoke to the playpen's section organiser they didn't know where the playpen would be next year, although they did hope it would return. I believe there are portions of the rally organising committee who were against the playpen idea from the start, so there was no guarante it would return for subsequent years. I suspect it will equally be a 'discussion' at committee level over its location or even existance next year as well. I can only think of one person who might hold a high enough position to say with any certainty where it might be, and I'm not sure they're a great fan of the 'pen either.

Originally Posted by Cvrt0_0

Having driven a roller at Onslow I appreciate the situation with the lie of the land. I just feel it is a bit of an odd situation having the working demonstrations (steam threshing, stone crushing, sawing etc) up one end of the field and the play pen (well this year it was more threshing) up the other end.

Ah, the location of the playpen this year being far away from the engine line, as opposed to a general layout issue of the entire working field being seperate from them is I think what is called 'a bodge'! Having lost the usual playpen area on the main field they decided to find an alternative rather than do away with it altogether. In the rubik's cube shuffle there wasn't alternative space elsewhere so it got lumped in the already existing steam ploughing/cultivation area - thus meaning there wasn't enough space for a proper demonstration of that either. Not exactly a great sucess from any perspective, but the alternative would have been not to have even tried to accomodate one...

This year could either be seen as an unfortunate "one-off", or the beginning of the end. If it's decided that the traditional playpen space is not available in future years and everyone - visitors and exhibitors alike moan like hell about this year's alternative, then it will no doubt be easier for the organising committee to decide just to do away with it and not make any attempt at one in the future. We'll be heading back to the engines stationary on the peg for the weekend situation - which was the situation prior to 2010.

I know it is hard to please everyone, I appreciate space is finite and at no point was I suggesting 'displacing' people to make room for steam. But perhaps a rejig might be in order?

When I said 'displace' I was meaning being moved to elsewhere on the site. Clearly space for exhibitors to camp isn't optional, but it does occupy a large area. Public camping provides a welcome income stream so it would be financially daft to reduce or remove that. The public car park field is one great long slope, so not ideal to use for exhibits. The camping is the opposite end from the public entrance, move that across to make room for exhibits means all the public will have to walk through a camp site to reach the rally - that ain't gonna work. Visitors already have to skirt around the edge of the camping to reach the working field which is where the 'division' between sites comes from.

There are effectively only two entrances onto the site. If you make the current exhibitor's entrance the public one then the only large area for public parking will be the current working field. It isn't possible to move that to the other end where there's currently public parking as that ground is uncultivated park land for grazing - the landlord isn't going to want that ploughing up.

Whilst minor tweaks are possible, and sections can move (spit bangs have been in a variety of locations over the years, as have trade stands, craft and beer tent. The fair has also shuffled a bit), when faced with the site they've got it's hard to see how there can be any great major rethinks, and certainly nothing that solves the traffic issues outside the site.

Originally Posted by Mr. Fettler

Regardless of how good this show might be there is NO way I'd queue up in that.
Looks like Russia in the 70's waiting for bread.

It should be remembered that David's photo was taken at 08:30 in the morning - the gates to the rally didn't open until 9:15, so people are queuing up like that 45 minutes before the start! I accept that I understand the queues were pretty bad throughout the day as well, but the organisers can't do anything to prevent queues before the gate is even open. Even if the decision was made to open early, all that will happen is in subequent years it will become expected that it will open early and people will start arriving and queuing even earlier.

For all the critisim on here, that members of the public and enthusiasts are prepared year after year to stream into the site and form such long queues must surely mean the organisers are at least doing something right to provide an attraction that's that popular.

Originally Posted by triumphman

Mine explorer putting in a late entry for longest post of 2014. Good effort.

Well I could quote each post and pass comment individually, filling the page with posts in the process - or I could write one post and incorporate all references into it. If someone isn't in the least bit interested in my mutterings then it's easier for them to skip one long post rather than have to scroll through multiple ones...